It seems Natalie and I have generated quite a bit of conversation with the article we posted yesterday on the Jewish Week’s website. As of this writing, the article has been posted 376 times on Facebook (only 16 tweets, though–come on Twitter people!). And Natalie and I have reached the point where we need to stop paying attention to every comment, because it’s too easy to be sucked into them, especially the ones that are nasty in tone. We respect and appreciate people who substantively engage our arguments with civility. But such is the state of our modern media world that those people are drowned out by the people who missed the halakha classes on derekh eretz (good manners).
The main thing we take away from the experience at this point is that you have to be very strategic in crafting your message. We knew this going in of course, and thought we did a good job. But as one of our friends pointed out, the Maccabeats as subject distracted people from the main point we were trying to make, which wasn’t the Maccabeats per se, the but the issue of women’s portrayal in Orthodoxy. The essence of the article is this line: “The Orthodox community remains challenged to find a way for women, in their bodies, to participate in the public life of the community.” Unfortunately a lot of people got caught on us being let down by the Maccabeats, even though the first line of the piece is “We love the Maccabeats,” which we still do. (One of our kids wants to dress as a Maccabeat for Purim.)
Virtually all of the heat the article has generated is about how it’s unfair to pick on the Maccabeats, with some accusations that we had this article all ready to go and were just waiting for the right moment. That isn’t true. We wanted to focus on the larger issue of women’s public portrayal in Orthodoxy, and we saw this issue clearly in the Maccabeats video. Many of the folks who have read the article wouldn’t have done so if it were only about the klal, the big idea, and not the prat, the example, of the Maccabeats. Any discussion of generalities needs specifics to discuss. It seems to us that’s basic argumentation, not crass opportunism.
For all those out there who have been dwelling on the question, “Why did they pick on the Maccabeats?” we would ask you to consider our main point: “Women are welcomed in the public life of Orthodoxy when that public takes place in the form of words, when their bodies—including their voices—can be separated from their minds.” What do you think of that observation? Do you agree? Do you think we as an Orthodox community can do a better job in the way we think about and present men, women, and the relations between them? We do, and that’s what we’d like others to consider.
Tzom kal – an easy fast today.
March 17, 2011 at 3:18 pm
Your article was bang on the nail about the direction orthodoxy is taking. After nearly 5 decades, I have just left orthodoxy. It didn’t notice because it never saw me there behind the mechitza, and for years now has not heard me in the public sphere because my voice, it decided recently, is the equivalent of all sorts of definitions that I would be embarrassed to put on paper. Grandchildren of orthodox Rabbis in both Ashkenaz and Sephard, my husband and I grew up in homes where such attitudes would have been viewed are perversions and politically motivated. I can no longer be a party to this marginalising of women to the point of the absurd in the name of the Judaism I loved and grew up in. It was a pleasure to see an orthodox Rabbi as a co-writer of the article but it is sad that whenever orthodox Rabbis speak with a voice of moderation and true concern about issues of equality and respect, other moderates have to heave a sigh of relief (because you are few and far between) and there is a barrage of unpleasant intolerant talkbacks against them. Anyway, Purim sameach and well done for raising the issue and you are right, of course, the way you did it got you the readers and the ratings and that’s, bottom line, the important thing.
March 17, 2011 at 10:06 pm
I write and star in a YouTube series called “Jew in the City” where I am a woman “in my body” in a public forum.
Although I’ve gotten an occassional comment that women shouldn’t be online in videos, the majority of comments I’ve received from Orthodox Jews and rabbis from all over the spectrum of Orthodoxy, is that they love what I’m doing.
What I’m doing is not so common, but there are other Orthodox women in online videos like Esther Jungreis, Lori Palatnik, and Jamie Geller and for the most part, I think these women are accepted for what they’re doing as well.
Have you ever considered the fact that more women aren’t putting themselves out there because they don’t want to? When I decided to start my YouTube series I had no fear of what people would think because I’m operating within halacha.
If more women aren’t running to the public sphere it may be because they’re happier not being in the spot light.
March 18, 2011 at 2:03 am
“Women are welcomed in the public life of Orthodoxy when that public takes place in the form of words, when their bodies—including their voices—can be separated from their minds.” What do you think of that observation?
I agree, but what gives you the idea that everyone viewing a YouTube video can make that separation? Let’s admit it – many men don’t think the way you claim to, and pop culture typically milks that for all it’s worth. We tend to avoid putting women on public display because we don’t see the need to expose them to the natural way in which most men think.
March 18, 2011 at 5:08 am
Let’s then tackle the central point, the ‘klal’ :
“Do you think we as an Orthodox community can do a better job in the way we think about and present men, women, and the relations between them?”
Ezra has already expressed this more compactly but this is my way. People committed to classical Judaism or Orthodoxy need to give the old ways at least the benefit of the doubt before giving in to the urge to tinker, especially in the direction of larger social acceptance. Abraham was not called ‘Ivri’ for nothing. If you are the Chofetz Chaim, you may bless the Bais Yaakov movement, but most of us don’t have that reach and vision. If we think we do we are probably not Orthodox, and I won’t take time to analyze the proof of that pudding.
If classical Judaism predominantly puts men out in public and women private, that is a function of anthropology, not religion. We are all just domesticated Cro-Magnons. As part of the whole package, the gantze megilla, oh heck let’s just call it the Covenant, Jewish Jews living Jewishly have to exert sexual discipline. As with all Biblical or Orthodox rules, these are designed to make things easier and more effective, not harder. Let’s just say that these policies are not just things you can’t do and you hafta do, but things that shape the lives of individuals and collectively of society.
If the Torah defines only very limited avenues for sexual relations, then it is fair to say that any woman not on the approved list is in some sense to be treated as your (grand)mother, sister(-in-law) or (grand)daughter. It is not necessarily a conscious thing, but any affiliated Jew can sense the heightened family feeling we have for other Jews, the most so perhaps in Israel. It can certainly be seen by contrast in its absence among non-O’s and non-Jews.
For this purpose, it’s easier and more effective for all concerned to take sexuality out of the equation.
- It’s not impossible for men to relate to women as disembodied, but it’s work for them (probably lowers their hormone levels and sperm count as well).
- It’s not impossible for women to relate to men on equal terms, but the ones who take the easy path and project sexuality are going to get more attention and rewards, whether it’s a job, a sale, YouTube hits, ‘likes’.
In the largest sense, the essence of radical feminism seems to be the notion that sexuality and sexual identity is a purely abstract thing. LGBT movements and their social demands such as same-sex marriages are a direct outgrowth of this, as well as increasing promiscuity including incest. Just so we can’t blow me off as a tea-bagging Beckoid -Palinoid obsessive fanatic, here is a quote from the NY Times of March 10, 2011, ‘New View of How Humans Moved Away From Apes’
“Dr. Chapais said that the new findings “validate and enrich” the model of human social evolution proposed in his book. “If you take the promiscuity that is the main feature of chimp society, and replace it with pair bonding, you get many of the most important features of human society,” he said.”
And we Jews are constituted as the model society, the prototype for humanistic and humane behavior.
But maybe that’s too big a klal to tackle here.
Capiche?
March 18, 2011 at 7:26 am
The bigger issue women within ‘ultra-orthodoxy’. Take charedi newspapers where even pictures of baby girls are banned, and chassidic communities where women cannot drive. When are we going to start THIS conversation. If the female author of this article was writing in the Israeli Yated Neeman, she wouldn’t even be allowed to have her name mentioned.
March 18, 2011 at 4:14 pm
It’s only a bigger issue if you make it one. The chareidi community is a minority within a minority. Have you considered that the audience for Yated goes there for that? Chareidi women have ample media outlets of by and for them, just like the magazine rack before the cash register in your supermarket.
Maybe its a guy thing. It’s like sex-segregated classrooms after you are out of school. Guys at least need that for increased own peace of mind. If you disagree, let me introduce you to Mr. Johnson. Chareidi men and women basically live in two sepate societies. And they don’t tell anyone else to do it. You could go a lifetime without meeting chareidim or certainly being coerced by them. So why are you concerned with their lifestyle choices? If they all became gay I am sure you would defend that to the last electron in your keyboard.
A couple of the core concepts of Jewish identity is to be a kingdom of priests and a holy nation (stated before Sinai). We are further told separately to ‘be holy’ as God is holy. This obviously involves more than ‘be nice’. The chareidim, men and women both mind you, have adopted a total lifestyle. That’s right, female priests. You may have your own way or no way to observe this, but that is their way. If they changed, they wouldn’t be who they are. You would no doubt think that is an improvement but just come out and say so instead of coming up with improvements for them.
By all means, tell yourself that the truly spiritually strong like you don’t need all that. They won’t care. It will be your turn to demonstrate that those sociological subgroups of Judaism are indeed more holy and Godly than the chareidim. Or come up with ten criteria for Jewishness and stack the groups up against them, y’know, kindness, generosity, friendliness, compliance with God’s will; the good stuff.
March 18, 2011 at 8:27 pm
I understand very well that you weren’t attacking the Maccabeats, but you showed something about your outlook by your choice of targets. If you want to organize a college age women’s a capella group that doesn’t perform live except for women and rely on the permissive positions within halacha for people to watch the video, then b’hatzlacha. But your choice of a Maccabeats video as the basis of your critique of the larger orthodox society reveals much about your outlook — that in your ideal world, everyone drops their own derech and adopts yours. Open Orthodoxy? Maybe in some ways, but it appears it’s not open to any other type of Orthodoxy.